SEASON 7:
The Problems of the World

Episode 57: Imagination and Action for Peace with Haneen Sabbah and Miriam Turmalin
Haneen (Palestinian) and Miriam (Israeli) tell the story of their coming together and the possibility of peace that exists through their relationship.  Through their deep inner work and their love for each other, they have cultivated the ability to carry the facts of the dehumanization and violence that is occurring along with a picture of hope and possibility. This episode offers a way forward towards peace in our hearts and the world.

Find out more about their upcoming peace event in Greece. Find details and contact information below. Follow Haneen @haneen.sabbah on Instagram.   
 https://unitinginhumanity.wixsite.com/uniting-in-humanity

https://whydonate.com/en/fundraising/uniting-in-our-humanity

Episode 56: Artificial Intelligence: A Live Human Podcast Conversation with Andrew Sullivan and Guests 

Andrew Sullivan, poet, philosopher, Waldorf high school teacher, and interdisciplinary artist, banters with me and a live audience about Artificial Intelligence, the heart, and community. I can't wait to try out this format again! This conversation was recorded during the Sacramento Waldorf School February Teacher's Conference focused on Waldorf education in the age of ChatGPT.

Episode 55: Imbolc Wisdom and Our Next Podcast Book Club!
In this short solo episode, I talk about my recent absence, the celebration of Imbolc, a time of "becoming real," your invitation to my next podcast book club--but this time it's a mysterious lecture series by Rudolf Steiner. Ooo....ahhh....

Link to Hibernian Mysteries Lecture Series
Kim Marie Coaching 
Episode 13 with Kim and Episdoe 35 with Tess
Tess Parker @__highpriestess

Episode 54: Inner Development as World Development with Laura Embrey 

Laura Embrey, author of eight volumes of form drawing books for healing the mind, body, and soul, talks about "the double" and the understanding that inner development must be in service to world development in order to transform the negative forces within and outside of us. This episode was recorded live and has plenty of  esoteric perspectives, along with a healthy does of humor and the occasional background noise.  You can hear more of Laura on Episode 12: Healing Forms, and find all of Laura's books at lauraembrey.com. 

Episode 53: Money & Love with Timothy Kennedy 
 In this season on the Problems of the World, Timothy Kennedy explores the spiritual side of an issue that effects us all: MONEY. From its origins to its powerful influence to solutions each of us can take up, Timothy's wisdom and depth invites us into a new imagination of what money can mean. Be sure to tune in to the extended play "easter egg" comments and advice after the music at the end! 

Episode 52: Kids and Technology with Dr. Alison Davis
How do children learn to navigate the world of technology in a healthy way? In this lively conversation, Dr. Alison Davis shares her research  on the impact technology has on their social emotional lives of the students she's surveyed.  Her thoughtful, practical, and human centered digital literacy curriculum is available to schools. 

You can reach her on IG @poems_and_pebbles are by email at readmoreproust@gmail.com

Episode 51: The Truth About Peace with Conner Habib
To kick off my new season focused on "the problems of the world," Conner Habib and I discuss the depth of spiritual activity needed to understand the truth of how peace is created and why peace is becoming a possibility for humankind now more than ever. His perspective on the Israeli/Palestinian conflict and the suffering and possibility of redemption is profound and offers a picture of a way forward.  

Notes:
The Way to the Spring by Ben Ehrenreich
Episode 19 of Against Everyone with Conner Habib
https://gazafightsforfreedom.com/ by Abby Martin
https://twitter.com/aliabunimah?s=11
@eid_yara
@houseofhopepalestine

Episode 50: Spiritual Friendship with Angela Foster and Jordan Walker

Friendship is one of the most powerful forces in our lives. What are the qualities of a spiritual friendship and what makes it unique?

Tune in to this unscripted conversation with two of my spiritual friends, Angela Foster and Jordan Walker, as we explore what makes our bond so special.

This week's homework: Message me your thoughts on the qualities of spiritual friendships and your experiences with your spiritual friends.
References:
Hilma af Klint painting: Intercepted by Gravitation
Faithfulness Verse by Rudolf Steiner
Brothers in the Beloved Community: The Friendship of Thich Nhat Hanh and Martin Luther King Jr by Marc Andrus
The Man Who Speaks With the Flowers by Glenn Clark
The Story of Buddha and Ananda and Spiritual Friendship

Episode 49: The Goetheanum, A Courageous Birthday & Communing with Lillies

It's my 49th birthday and it's episode 49! Explore three deep questions from the Goetheanum World Conference and find out why talking to lilies is on my agenda this year--and why it should be on yours too! 

SEASON 6: How To Know Higher Worlds Book Club

Episode 48: Chapter 11: How to Know Higher Worlds~ Life & Death: The Guardian of the Threshold

In the last chapter of How to Know Higher Worlds, we meet the Greater Guardian, a being of light.  But you won't get past it if you are still walking this path only for yourself.  
Let me know what you want to read together next!  Message me @laura_scappaticci or at laurascappaticci.com 

Episode 47: Chapter 10: How to Know Higher Worlds~ The Guardian of the Threshold

Chapter 10 is a little trippy! Meet the Guardian of the Threshold, a powerful being that shows up when you've practiced and practiced and are ready to face yourself. 

Your homework: How did these concepts land with you and what do you think happens after death?

Send me your ponderings, thoughts, and pics on @laura_scappaticci

Episode 46: Chapter 9: How to Know Higher Worlds~
The Splitting of the Personality

Conner Habib offers us some brilliant pictures of our esoteric development, as well as a few warnings, plus a reference to a Marvel character we can strive to be more like. Join me for Chapter 9 of How to Know Higher Worlds by Rudolf Steiner.  

Tune in to True & False Spiritual Paths Episode 231 of Against Everyone with Conner Habib.  

Episode 45 Chapter 8 : How to Know Higher Worlds~ Continuity of Consciousness

“Human life unfolds in three alternating states: The waking state, the state of dream sleep, and the state of deep, dreamless sleep.”  What does that mean? Tune into Chapter 8 to explore with me.

Episode 44: Chapter 7 : How to Know Higher Worlds~ Dreams 

Am I awake or am I dreaming? 
Chapter 7 of How to Know Higher Worlds explores changes in the dream life of those on a spiritual path and the role of the "Higher I" in our lives.  

Episode 43: Chapter 6: How to Know Higher Worlds~ The Chakras

Chakras, spiritual beings, lies and judgment? Yep. Chapter 6  of How To Know Higher Worlds by Rudolf Steiner has a bit of something for everyone.

Episode 42: Chapter 5: How to Know Higher Worlds~ Requirements  

Chapter 5 is pretty short, but it includes these rad requirements for your spiritual perception to grow: Tend To Your Health, Know You Are Part of the Whole of Life, Understand The importance of Thoughts & Feelings, Know That You Are Soul-Spiritual Being, Have Steadfastness, Have Gratitude. 

Notes:
Against Everyone With Conner Habib Episode 116 with Are Thorensen
Margaret Mead quote. 

Episode 41: Chapter 4 How to Know Higher Worlds: Patience, Anger, Gentleness 

Do you need a patience mantra? Can you overcome anger and judgement and listen deeply? What does gentleness have to do with spirituality? Chapter 4 of How to Know Higher Worlds by Rudolf Steiner is full of practical advice on managing our thoughts and feelings in order to move forward on our spiritual path. 

Episode 40: Chapter 3 How to Know Higher Worlds

Helpers of Humanity? The Potion of Oblivion? Chapter 3 gives us some great images to continue through on our path of spiritual perception, including the the Fire, Water, and Air Trials. 

Send me your favorite quotes, questions, and pics of your book (or you tuning in) at @laura_scappaticci on Instagram and Facebook and at laurascappaticci.com

Episode 39: Chapter 2 How to Know Higher Worlds

What do growth and decay have to do with spiritual development? Why would looking at crystal, a plant, and an animal, or tuning into the meaning behind a dog's bark make you a better person? I'll distill these spiritual exercises, share some of my favorite quotes, and give you some exercises to try this week.  

Message me on IG and FB @laura_scappaticci or email connect@laurascappaticci.com

Episode 38: Chapter 1: How to Know Higher Worlds

What would it mean for humanity if we could see the unseen forces around us and in us: Love, compassion, the beings of nature, the presence of the spirit within each of us, and the spiritual forces at work outside of us. Can you imagine that? Would we turn guns on each other, would we pillage the earth? Would we break each other’s hearts? 

Chapter 1 of How To Know Higher Worlds explores the conditions for cultivating a living experience of higher knowledge: reverence, a rich inner life, and inner peace. Easy, right? This episode includes tips and tricks from Steiner plus my struggles and joys on the path to reaching these capacities.  

Episode 37: The Mystery Center of the Heart with Lisa Romero

In this kick-off episode of my How to Know Higher Worlds book club, Lisa Romero shares the incredible spiritual experiences she had in her youth and her connection to Rudolf Steiner's work.  What is the next spiritual step for humanity? How do we cultivate the forces necessary to meet artificial intelligence, isolation, and greed? Lisa's insight and experiences will carry you through to a deeper sense of what is needed from each of us in this moment in humanity's evolution. 

Check-out Lisa's new YouTube Channel Astral Arc  with monthly virtue postings plus interviews with young seekers.  

Register for courses and find out more about Lisa at innerworkpath.com. 

Episode 36: How to Be In Three Places At Once
Solo Episode

This quick solo episode includes a jaunty poetic reflection on the last 11 months. And oh my goodness!! Add this to your summer reading/listening list.....My next season on How To Know Higher Worlds, book by Rudolf Steiner!  

Episode 35: Becoming Real with Tess Parker 

Tess Parker describes her journey of "becoming real," and how she shed what wasn't hers to carry and stepped into her most authentic self. (Sounds amazing, right? And it's all about love.) Through personal stories as well as the story of the Velveteen Rabbit, Tess offers tips and wisdom on the journey to self we must all take. You can find Tess and book a birth chart reading with her @__highpriestess on Instagram. 
PS- About halfway through you'll hear about my absolute obsession with Ted Lasso. 

Episode 34: Spirituality and Writing with Anya Bergman

Bestselling author Anya Bergman explores the rise of witchlit and feminist retellings, along with with her personal spiritual experiences before and during the writing of her international bestseller, The Witches of Vardo. Anya reads two beautiful sections of this incredible historical fiction account of the women accused of witchcraft in Norway in the late 1600s.

Find the Irish Castle retreat here.

Join Write from the Heart on Saturdays at 10 a.m. BST via www.noelleharrison.com, on and on Instagram as @anyabergman or @noelle.harrison5. For events and booktour information go to www.anyabergman.com

POP-UP EPISODES!

Episode 33: Why What’s Trending Isn’t True with Conner Habib

Conner Habib's latest podcast season, How To Live: Beyond, shakes up all the latest trends about psychedelics, witchcraft, Earth worship, and more. Together we explore whether these trends are liberating or old forms that are holding us back. We discuss the difference between self-development and spiritual development, where anthroposophy is headed, and why what's trending isn't always what's true. Check-out Conner's new March 11, 2023 workshop, The Mysteries of the Tarot with Rachel True and Sarah Maria Griffin at connerhabib.com 

Episode 32: Courageous Decision or Foolhardy Mistake? A Personal Update

What was the purpose of this big move to Scotland? Was it the right move or a mistake? Tune in to hear my spiritual perspective on decision-making and finding meaning during challenging times, framed through two writing tools, Purpose and Critical Self-Reflection, from my fabulous writing program.

Sources:
What was the purpose of this big move to Scotland? What are we doing next? Tune in to hear my spiritual perspective on decision-making and finding meaning during challenging times, framed through two writing tools, Purpose and Critical Self-Reflection, from my fabulous writing program.

Show Notes:

The Marginalian with Maria Popova
The Lazy Genius with Kendra Adachi
Marie Forleo
Rest is Resistance by Tricia Hersey
Edinburgh Napier Creative Writing MA The

Episode 31: The Healing Art of Speech with Debbie Spitulnik
What's the art of speech and how can it heal us? Debbie Spitulnik shares her experiences of healing and understanding her own dyslexia, while helping children and adults build confidence and discover themselves through this lively, creative, spiritual art. This is a must listen for Waldorf/Steiner teachers! Check out her workshops and offerings at theartofspeech.com

SEASON 5: Divine Feminine & Masculine  

Episode 30: The Black Madonna with Stephanie Georgieff In this mysterious and wonderful episode, Stephanie Georgieff, author, speaker and podcaster, shares her research and experiences with the genre of art known as The Black Madonna. She explains the origin of these amazing icons, sculptures, and paintings, as we explore their significance in today's world. Find her podcast The Black Madonna Speaks here,  the Heart of the Black Madonna YouTube Channel here and her Patreon here. 

Episode 29: Mother & Child Legacy with Sarah Parkes

This episode with Sarah Parkes is filled with powerful, transformative ideas about life, loss, lineage, and legacy. Sarah Parkes, legacy coach and producer of the podcast Legacy Life Podcast, explores how to create a legacy of love and aligned leadership in one's family, business, and the world, while offering a deeply moving spiritual experience of loss and finding one's destiny. You can find Sarah's parenting, coaching, and legacy work at spcoaching.co.uk. 

Episode 28: Standing Above the Abyss with Jordan Walker Jordan Walker recounts a deep dream experience, as we dive into the sacred masculine and feminine, exploring polarities, process, and the challenges and beauty of life. Jordan currently helps coordinate the Anthroposophical Society in America's Applied Anthroposophy online course and the World Social Initiative Forum's Leadership in Transformation online program. Find him at www.wisdomworking.org and on Instagram @expandedspectrum

Show Notes:
A Ritual to Read To Each Other by William Stafford
Love and the World by Robert Sardello
He, She, We, Owning Your Own Shadow by Robert A. Johnson
SEASON 4: Spiritual Practices

Episode 27: One Courageous Update, Three Beasts, and Seven Questions: Solo Episode wit Laura Scappaticci Adjustment Issues, Michaelmas Courage, The Three Beasts, and Birthday Practices are all packed into this quick solo episode that offers a personal update + tips for reflection on being your most reflective and courageous self.
For updates, posts, and life tips follow me on Instagram
@laura_scappaticci AND @fivelittlerunaways
Email connect@laurascappaticci.com

Episode 26: Trust & Fear: Solo Episode with Laura Scappaticci

Where you been, Laura? I'm back. But I’ve major a huge move with my family to another country! Tune in for some tips on making major life changes, the trials you'll go through when you do, and how to come out on the other side with the help of the spiritual world.

Episode 25: Seven Year Cycles of Meaning with Dr. Karen Nani Apana

Dr. Karen Nani Apana, biography counselor, offers us a way to understand our life through themes, seven year cycles, near death experiences and patterns of behavior plus a fresh take on spirituality and anthroposophy.
References:
Return from Tomorrow by George Rithie MD
Dying To Be Me, by Anita Moorjani.
Bridges Between Life and Death by Iris Paxino
Citizens of the Cosmos by Beredyn Jocelyn

Episode 24: Astrology as a Spiritual Practice

Melanie Gurley describes her deeply human experiences with astrology, including the power of retrogrades, personal practices, and chart readings as sense-making in the midst of tragedy. Find Melanie's offerings here at beautiful-astrology.com! 

Episode 23: All Practices Are Spiritual Practices with Conner Habib
Conner Habib, my smarty pants little brother, offers practical (and deeply spiritual) advice on cultivating a spiritual practice and the fruits such practices bear, all the while pestering me about cleaning my house. Tune into Conner's podcast Against Everyone with Conner Habib on all podcast apps.

Episode 22: Teaching as a Spiritual Practice with
Dr. Liz Beaven
With practical tips and spiritual wisdom, Liz Beaven, Ed.D. describes her surprising call to teaching, her humbling and expansive journey as an educator, and the tension between spiritual understanding and everyday life. 

Episode 21: Disrupting Catholicism with Pastor Dr. David William Parry
Pastor Parry is the Founder of St. Valentine’s Hall, an Independent Catholic Chapel in London. In this lively episode, he talks about his recent dreams of the Virgin Mary, his writing, and his task on earth. Pastor Parry's wit and wisdom illuminate his spiritual journeys with Christianity, paganism, and anthroposophy all the way through to his priorities of inclusivity and love.
Check out these videos about St. Valentine's Hall.
You can find all of Pastor Parry's work at davidwilliamparry.com

Episode 20: Raising Yourself: From Religion to Spirituality with Ali LaVanway
After the birth of her third child, Ali LaVanway began to question her Mormon upbringing. Since that time, she's created her own spiritual understanding of what it means to be authentic, and how re-parenting herself is a spiritual practice full of healthy boundaries and fun. This episode includes lots of laughter, honesty, a little song, and a tiny sound issue.
Find out more about Ali and her work at yourcleverfriend.com.

Episode 19: The Power of Poetry, Pictures & Pause with Jessica Crawford
Jessica Crawford is a photographer, poet, and teacher whose forthcoming book Reflections invites readers into a place of contemplation and preparation. She names the three S's of stress, screens, and sorrow as factors that are affecting our children and our life forces. She talks about her morning routine, and the spiritual practice of pausing--even if just for a moment.
Follow her on Instagram @jcrawfordprojects to see her beautiful photos!

Episode 18: Be Ordinary (Or How the Coronavirus Changed Me)
In this short solo episode, I introduce Season 4 which is all about Spiritual Practices. I talk about my spiritual journey with the Coronavirus and the insight it offered me, plus I ask for your feedback on topics and guests. Thanks for listening! Please follow and share to DISRUPT MATERIALISM with me. Find and message me on Instagram @laura_scappaticci or laurascappaticci.com.

SEASON 3: A Healing Connection

Episode 17: A Pandemic of Certainty & the Evolving Consciousness of Healing
Author, podcaster, and intellectual, Conner Habib, opens this episode with a story about a cancer diagnosis given to him during a trip to the emergency room. This conversation is far reaching, touching on the colonization of medicine, the AIDS public health crisis as related to public health today, and the "pandemic of certainty" occurring in our world. You can find Conner and his podcast Against Everyone With Conner Habib at this link!

Episode 16: Spiritual Healing for Body Image Issues with Ashley Andrews
Ashley Andrews, integrative nutrition & holistic health coach, yoga instructor and reiki practitioner, brings a youthful and wise perspective to healing body image issues through freedom in thinking, connecting with the physical plane, and tuning into find oneself, one's teachers, and oneness.
Follow Ashley @wakeupwithashley on Instagram.

Episode 15: Healing Multiplies with Marlies Schade
Marlies Schade, somatic trauma healing practitioner and rhythmical massage therapist, explores how each of us can create a space inside and around ourselves to allow healing to come in. Her work with trauma guides us into an exploration of mirror neurons, the relationship of opposites in healing, nature processes and their echo in our body, personal rhythms, and creating a field of healing full of attention, warmth, hope, and possibilities.

Email or message Laura for information on our new course, A Healing Impulse: Antidotes to Trauma and the Stressors of Our Time that will be offered this February.

Episode 14: Flip Your Perspective on Healing & Illness with Adam Blanning, MD
What if our medical system viewed the human being as having innate healing capacities? Explore this perspective and practice with author, teacher, and physician, Adam Blanning, MD. In addition to the framework around healing and illness, our topics include addiction, self-harm, ADHD and more.
Go to https://vimeo.com/ondemand/restwarmthandcleanse to see Adam's recent workshop and check out www.anthroposophicmedicine.org to find out more about trainings for healthcare professionals and workshops for everyone.

Episode 13: The Sacred Nights of Winter with Kim Marie
The darkness of this time of year is potent. Can we tap into it and create sacred and healing moments amidst our hectic schedules or holiday blues?
Kim Marie, creator of the Sacred Nights of Winter Journal, offers us five steps to cultivate healing and deep reflection during the holiday season despite holiday pressures.
To get Kim's Sacred Nights of Winter journal go to kimmariecoaching.com.

Episode 12: Healing Forms with Laura Embrey
Sacred forms are everywhere. Think of spirals & Celtic knots. But how do they connect to healing? Laura Embrey, author of eight books of healing forms and international workshop presenter, started experiencing the power of forms and their physical and emotional healing qualities over 30 years ago. We explore the origins of forms and their healing applications in today's world. Have an ailment? There is a form for it! Check out lauraembrey.com for forms to help with the Corona virus, all of her books, and how to book a private consultation.

Episode 11: A Healing Connection (Solo Episode)
We all have healing stories. Mine includes an asthma attack, watercress, and self-created time-outs. This quick solo episode introduces Season 3 and invites you into a healing journey with me.
Check out my new free worksheet, A Healing Connection, at this link,  to explore your spiritual autobiography of healing.
And hey--email me your questions and thoughts about healing at connect@laurascappaticci.com.

SEASON 2: Befriending Death

Episode 10: The Dead Are Always With Us with Conner Habib Conner brilliantly outlines the ways in which we are all connecting with the dead every day. We discuss his experience of a "crisis apparition" and talk about connecting to the people we've lost and how that creates deeper and healthier relationships with the living, We chat about the concept of reincarnation, and the cultural narrative about death that collectively we refuse to accept.
To hear more from Conner on this topic, check out AEWCH 150 here.
Get my free Befriending Death Worksheet Here!

Episode 9: The Alchemy of Healing Through Grief with Michel Mariscal
How do we transform grief into an experience of growth? Author and speaker Michele Mariscal explores her journey through loss to a spiritual understanding of the alchemical transformation that grief can create.
Check out Michele's work at www.energym.org.

Episode 8: In The Parlor with Heidi Boucher
Heidi Boucher, producer, writer, & director of the documentary In The Parlor: The Final Goodbye, illuminates the beauty of home funerals, how to help children understand death, and the most important thing we can do for those who have died.
Check out the movie In The Parlor here.
Go to laurascappaticci.com or contact me directly for a free worksheet on Befriending Death.
PS- The sound gets a little funky when Heidi shares a story of a spiritual encounter. Coincidence?? You tell me.

Episode 7: Staying Connected With The Dead
In this enlightening conversation, Jolie Hanna Luba talks about the simplicity of staying connected to those who have died using intention and warmth, as well as the "death care community" she created in Atlanta, GA.
Connect with Jolie and her work here!
Find out more about death cafes here.
Find out more about death doulas here.

Episode 6: Befriending Death (Solo Episode)
In this short but sweet solo episode, I introduce the topic of Season 2, Befriending Death. I share stories about my own spiritual and emotional history with death and connecting with the dead, plus the transformation of death as hidden and shameful topic to something full of love and humor. (Trigger Warning: Death stories plus a death joke.)
Transcripts of all That Good May Become episodes are coming soon! Thanks for tuning in.
More on Linda Bergh and Marianne Dietzel here.

SEASON 1: Self-Knowledge Is Knowledge

Episode 5: A Bear, A Wolf & A Fox AKA All Stories are Spiritual Stories with Conner Habib
Conner Habib, writer, podcaster and my kid brother, shares his first spiritual experience, why looking for spiritual signs can get tricky, some tips (and non- tips) on cultivating a spiritual path, and why all stories are spiritual stories.

Listen to Conner's podcast, Against Everyone with Conner Habib on all podcast apps and check out his website at connerhabib.com.

Episode 4: Democratized Psychology and Listening as Healing with Chris Burke
Chris Burke, Ph.D shares the story of a spiritual voice that once saved his life. Together we explore the power of creating a "community of listening and sharing" and why now more than ever everyday people, not just experts, are truly healers. Find out more about Chris and biography work at
www.riverbendbiographical.com
www.thehummingbirdprinciple.com
biographysocialart.org

Episode 3: Intergeneration Trauma & Spiritual Experiences with Claire Sicherman
Clair Sicherman, author of the book Imprint: A Memoir of Trauma in the Third Generation, explores her first, haunting spiritual experiences with her ancestors affected by the holocaust and her journey through to a loving  relationship with them, herself, and her family.  Stay tuned through to the end for an exercise to connect with your ancestors and yourself as you unpack your spiritual and ancestral history and any trauma that may have come along with it. Find out more about Claire's book, visual art, and writing classes at www.clairesicherman.com. 

Episode 2: Children & Spirituality with Chinyelu Kunz
This podcast begins with a powerful story of a spiritual experience from Chinyelu’s childhood in Nigeria, a place where the roots of her devotion to early childhood education began. We discuss how to support children when they come to us with spiritual experiences and why that's important in today's world. Stay tuned through to the end of the episode for a beautiful verse she gave to her son when he was going through a difficult period in 7th grade.
LINKS:
We Nurture Collective website with stories for children, recipes, & holistic parenting advice.
The We Nurture podcast

Episode 1: The Mystery of Spirit in a Lifetime with Rev. Bonnie Rambob's
Rev. Bonnie Rambob’s spiritual story includes a connection with a spirit being, losing her religion, and finding herself again after a dark night of the soul. Her story is profound and relatable at once. Hearing stories of self-doubt & spiritual awakening help us all trust our own spiritual experiences and allow for depth, meaning, and connection in today's world. Find Bonnie's podcast IrenaCast here and her work at the Parkside Community Church here.